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	<title>Comments on: Others on Conditional Forgiveness</title>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-8845</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 04:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Chuck,

(1) It looks like God who offers forgiveness to all - - who stands graciously ready to forgive.
(2) The relationship has been restored with the repentant.  Therefore, a commitment has been made that this matter no longer stands between us - - though forgiveness does not necessarily mean the elimination of consequences.
(3) No.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chuck,</p>
<p>(1) It looks like God who offers forgiveness to all &#8211; - who stands graciously ready to forgive.<br />
(2) The relationship has been restored with the repentant.  Therefore, a commitment has been made that this matter no longer stands between us &#8211; - though forgiveness does not necessarily mean the elimination of consequences.<br />
(3) No.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Sowers</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-8842</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Sowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-8842</guid>
		<description>Question: If forgivness is always conditional – what does un-forgiveness look like? 

Question: In comparison to forgiveness what is the difference in our response and attitude toward the unrepentant unforgiven person(s)?

Question: If you don’t forgive unless someone repents – do you try to remember all who haven’t repented and you havent forgiven as to keep up with who is unforgiven in your life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question: If forgivness is always conditional – what does un-forgiveness look like? </p>
<p>Question: In comparison to forgiveness what is the difference in our response and attitude toward the unrepentant unforgiven person(s)?</p>
<p>Question: If you don’t forgive unless someone repents – do you try to remember all who haven’t repented and you havent forgiven as to keep up with who is unforgiven in your life?</p>
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		<title>By: steveprost</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4821</link>
		<dc:creator>steveprost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-4821</guid>
		<description>In response to you, I did not say in my comment that the citation of Piper was incorrect, but only that you improperly cited him &quot;IN SUPPORT&quot; of the proposition you suggest that biblical forgiveness should always be conditioned upon repentance of the other person.  He only says that the &quot;full work&quot; of forgiveness can not be accomplished, but that does not mean that we do not do the important part ourselves of what &quot;forgive&quot; literally means in context and according to the best lexicons, which is to release our desire/right for personal payback to ourselves or just retribution/harm to the offender himself from the heart.  

This deepest sense of forgiving, from the heart, is what forgiveness is that I believe is ALWAYS the biblical calling even of hardened unrepentant enemies though outwardly we may need to demand many consequences because of the offense to include not trusting them, lessening our opinion of them, seeking proper this-worldly punishment for them in ecclesiastical/criminal courts, etc.  The teaching you list only provides dangerous warrant to many to say &quot;I don&#039;t need to forgive that person because they have not repented... I don&#039;t need to forgive my wife because she has not GENUINELY repented... etc. etc. etc.&quot;  Not biblical, not wise, not the foundation of God&#039;s forgiveness of us in waiting for our repentance on 99% of our sins in thought word and deed (he&#039;d be waiting forever in this life).  I AM forgiven for all the sins that don&#039;t even come to conciousness, let alone come to some genuine level of grief and change of mind over them hour after hour day after day.  

Piper&#039;s quote only says that while &quot;full work&quot; (I would say the full AIM would be a better choice of words) of forgiveness is forestalled, we still are to desire release of the small debt owed to us even by the most unrepentant enemy just as our much larger debts have been forgiven solely due to God&#039;s grace that came long before any seedlings of our repentance.  Here is more from the quote of Piper right after the quote you cite in the sermon on the unrepentant person suggesting we CAN forgive him even when we cannot reconcile/trust him/have intimacy with him due to his lack of repentance:

&quot;&quot;We can still lay down our ill will; we can hand over our anger to God; we can seek to do him good; but we cannot carry through reconciliation or intimacy. Thomas Watson said something very jolting: 
We are not bound to trust an enemy; but we are bound to forgive him. (Body of Divinity, p. 581) &quot;&quot;

Calvin is right, see his commentary on Luke 17.  I beg you to reconsider your position on this and search the Scriptures, as you would have much influence if you changed your mind.  If I am right, it is a very dangerous thing our best Reformed leader/thinkers have done in giving unbiblical excuse to many of our brightest in the evangelical church to NOT forgive, waiting for repentance that will never come and holding onto their petty desires for payback in light of the infinite debts they shockingly expect forgiveness for daily without ever being specifically repentant for or concious of in the ways they fail to love God with ALL their heart, soul, mind, and strength.  The multiple dire no-salvation warnings in the Gospels if professing believers are withhold forgiveness (categorical teaching except for the Lk 17 church discipline context) make this too important not to be absolutely sure we&#039;re getting this one right and going beyond the text because we are looking at &quot;well, what is the further AIM of forgiveness&quot;.  Being a lawyer in addition to a PCA minister, I can tell you by analogy that is also how we get in trouble with liberal statutory and constitutional interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to you, I did not say in my comment that the citation of Piper was incorrect, but only that you improperly cited him &#8220;IN SUPPORT&#8221; of the proposition you suggest that biblical forgiveness should always be conditioned upon repentance of the other person.  He only says that the &#8220;full work&#8221; of forgiveness can not be accomplished, but that does not mean that we do not do the important part ourselves of what &#8220;forgive&#8221; literally means in context and according to the best lexicons, which is to release our desire/right for personal payback to ourselves or just retribution/harm to the offender himself from the heart.  </p>
<p>This deepest sense of forgiving, from the heart, is what forgiveness is that I believe is ALWAYS the biblical calling even of hardened unrepentant enemies though outwardly we may need to demand many consequences because of the offense to include not trusting them, lessening our opinion of them, seeking proper this-worldly punishment for them in ecclesiastical/criminal courts, etc.  The teaching you list only provides dangerous warrant to many to say &#8220;I don&#8217;t need to forgive that person because they have not repented&#8230; I don&#8217;t need to forgive my wife because she has not GENUINELY repented&#8230; etc. etc. etc.&#8221;  Not biblical, not wise, not the foundation of God&#8217;s forgiveness of us in waiting for our repentance on 99% of our sins in thought word and deed (he&#8217;d be waiting forever in this life).  I AM forgiven for all the sins that don&#8217;t even come to conciousness, let alone come to some genuine level of grief and change of mind over them hour after hour day after day.  </p>
<p>Piper&#8217;s quote only says that while &#8220;full work&#8221; (I would say the full AIM would be a better choice of words) of forgiveness is forestalled, we still are to desire release of the small debt owed to us even by the most unrepentant enemy just as our much larger debts have been forgiven solely due to God&#8217;s grace that came long before any seedlings of our repentance.  Here is more from the quote of Piper right after the quote you cite in the sermon on the unrepentant person suggesting we CAN forgive him even when we cannot reconcile/trust him/have intimacy with him due to his lack of repentance:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8221;We can still lay down our ill will; we can hand over our anger to God; we can seek to do him good; but we cannot carry through reconciliation or intimacy. Thomas Watson said something very jolting:<br />
We are not bound to trust an enemy; but we are bound to forgive him. (Body of Divinity, p. 581) &#8220;&#8221;</p>
<p>Calvin is right, see his commentary on Luke 17.  I beg you to reconsider your position on this and search the Scriptures, as you would have much influence if you changed your mind.  If I am right, it is a very dangerous thing our best Reformed leader/thinkers have done in giving unbiblical excuse to many of our brightest in the evangelical church to NOT forgive, waiting for repentance that will never come and holding onto their petty desires for payback in light of the infinite debts they shockingly expect forgiveness for daily without ever being specifically repentant for or concious of in the ways they fail to love God with ALL their heart, soul, mind, and strength.  The multiple dire no-salvation warnings in the Gospels if professing believers are withhold forgiveness (categorical teaching except for the Lk 17 church discipline context) make this too important not to be absolutely sure we&#8217;re getting this one right and going beyond the text because we are looking at &#8220;well, what is the further AIM of forgiveness&#8221;.  Being a lawyer in addition to a PCA minister, I can tell you by analogy that is also how we get in trouble with liberal statutory and constitutional interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: A.B. Candeday: &#8220;Being forgiving doesn&#8217;t always mean being forgiving&#8221; at A Brick in the Valley</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4810</link>
		<dc:creator>A.B. Candeday: &#8220;Being forgiving doesn&#8217;t always mean being forgiving&#8221; at A Brick in the Valley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-4810</guid>
		<description>[...] also, others on conditional forgiveness and, Didn’t Jesus pray, “Father forgive [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] also, others on conditional forgiveness and, Didn’t Jesus pray, “Father forgive [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4801</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-4801</guid>
		<description>Steve, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.  You can see my argument more fully developed in Unpacking.  You might also find Caneday&#039;s primer helpful. Jones book, Embodying Forgiveness is a thoughtful reflection.  Sande also has some helpful material.

I think the citation on Piper is correct.  Desiring God just pointed to it off their blog.

If by improperly citing you mean, &quot;out of context,&quot; I didn&#039;t do much analysis of the quote.  I think there is enough context given for the quote to stand on its own.

I am always thankful to hear people are thinking deeply about forgiveness.  Proverbs 27:17.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.  You can see my argument more fully developed in Unpacking.  You might also find Caneday&#8217;s primer helpful. Jones book, Embodying Forgiveness is a thoughtful reflection.  Sande also has some helpful material.</p>
<p>I think the citation on Piper is correct.  Desiring God just pointed to it off their blog.</p>
<p>If by improperly citing you mean, &#8220;out of context,&#8221; I didn&#8217;t do much analysis of the quote.  I think there is enough context given for the quote to stand on its own.</p>
<p>I am always thankful to hear people are thinking deeply about forgiveness.  Proverbs 27:17.</p>
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		<title>By: steveprost</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4800</link>
		<dc:creator>steveprost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-4800</guid>
		<description>You improperly cite John Piper in support of the proposition that one should not forgive until there is repentance.  I believe we are always called to &#039;forgive&#039; from the heart in the most important sense of wanting retribution or payback for the debt/wrong done to US (not to God, the community, consequences, etc.); this is consistent with Piper&#039;s citation, and even more so when you read the entire sermon from which the quote is pulled.  Calvin also believes that we are ALWAYS called to forgive from the heart, and distinguishes the use of the word &#039;forgive&#039; in Lk 17 in his commentary on that section in meaning the first type of &quot;forgiving&quot; we are always called to do, but in the second more limited sense/use/definition of the word (and less common sense of the word in both Scripture and common usage) we are called to forgive so long as the offender repents, not holding it against them.  Here is the quote:

&quot;...there are two ways in which offenses are forgiven. If a man shall do me an injury, and I, laying aside the desire of revenge, do not cease to love him, but even repay kindness in place of injury, though I entertain an unfavorable opinion of him, as he deserves, still I am said to forgive him. For when God commands us to wish well to our enemies, He does not therefore demand that we approve in them what He condemns, but only desires that our minds shall be purified from all hatred. In this kind of pardon, so far are we from having any right to wait till he who has offended shall return of his own accord to be reconciled to us, that we ought to love those who deliberately provoke us, who spurn reconciliation, and add to the load of former offenses. A SECOND kind of forgiving is, when we receive a brother into favor, so as to think favorably respecting him, and to be convinced that the remembrance of his offense is blotted out in the sight of God...&quot; Just because forgiveness has reconciliation as its goal does not mean that the definition of &#039;forgive&#039; should be collapsed into what reconciliation is, nor that we are commanded to forgive only when repentance has happened.  This is logically inconsistent with the command to overcome evil with blessing and good toward even enemies, is inconsistent with God&#039;s waiting for us chronologically to repent before forgiving for 99% of our sins, and inconsistent with a view of the Greek word apheimi which at its root is a releasing, as in the releasing of a debt for which we desire/seek repayment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You improperly cite John Piper in support of the proposition that one should not forgive until there is repentance.  I believe we are always called to &#8216;forgive&#8217; from the heart in the most important sense of wanting retribution or payback for the debt/wrong done to US (not to God, the community, consequences, etc.); this is consistent with Piper&#8217;s citation, and even more so when you read the entire sermon from which the quote is pulled.  Calvin also believes that we are ALWAYS called to forgive from the heart, and distinguishes the use of the word &#8216;forgive&#8217; in Lk 17 in his commentary on that section in meaning the first type of &#8220;forgiving&#8221; we are always called to do, but in the second more limited sense/use/definition of the word (and less common sense of the word in both Scripture and common usage) we are called to forgive so long as the offender repents, not holding it against them.  Here is the quote:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;there are two ways in which offenses are forgiven. If a man shall do me an injury, and I, laying aside the desire of revenge, do not cease to love him, but even repay kindness in place of injury, though I entertain an unfavorable opinion of him, as he deserves, still I am said to forgive him. For when God commands us to wish well to our enemies, He does not therefore demand that we approve in them what He condemns, but only desires that our minds shall be purified from all hatred. In this kind of pardon, so far are we from having any right to wait till he who has offended shall return of his own accord to be reconciled to us, that we ought to love those who deliberately provoke us, who spurn reconciliation, and add to the load of former offenses. A SECOND kind of forgiving is, when we receive a brother into favor, so as to think favorably respecting him, and to be convinced that the remembrance of his offense is blotted out in the sight of God&#8230;&#8221; Just because forgiveness has reconciliation as its goal does not mean that the definition of &#8216;forgive&#8217; should be collapsed into what reconciliation is, nor that we are commanded to forgive only when repentance has happened.  This is logically inconsistent with the command to overcome evil with blessing and good toward even enemies, is inconsistent with God&#8217;s waiting for us chronologically to repent before forgiving for 99% of our sins, and inconsistent with a view of the Greek word apheimi which at its root is a releasing, as in the releasing of a debt for which we desire/seek repayment.</p>
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		<title>By: Biblical Forgiveness is Conditional! &#171; Man Downstairs</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-2524</link>
		<dc:creator>Biblical Forgiveness is Conditional! &#171; Man Downstairs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 04:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-2524</guid>
		<description>[...] http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/" rel="nofollow">http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eunice</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-971</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-971</guid>
		<description>So glad I didn&#039;t read this article until I had wrestled with it last night - my conclusion exactly. &quot;a two-stage process.  The first stage requires having an attitude of forgiveness, and the second, granting forgiveness. &quot;
I&#039;m looking at the paper I scribbled notes on at midnight - 2 halves, 2 sides same points. Wow! God is good to me.  
(I am now nervous that He has taught me something I am going to need to put into practice soon)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So glad I didn&#8217;t read this article until I had wrestled with it last night &#8211; my conclusion exactly. &#8220;a two-stage process.  The first stage requires having an attitude of forgiveness, and the second, granting forgiveness. &#8221;<br />
I&#8217;m looking at the paper I scribbled notes on at midnight &#8211; 2 halves, 2 sides same points. Wow! God is good to me.<br />
(I am now nervous that He has taught me something I am going to need to put into practice soon)</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-947</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ken Sande&#039;s dividing the attitude of forgiveness from the actual granting of forgiveness embodied my thoughts on this matter. Jesus&#039; desire, even on the torturous cross was &quot;Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.&quot; Yet actual forgiveness did not take place until the sinners repented and sought God&#039;s forgiveness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken Sande&#8217;s dividing the attitude of forgiveness from the actual granting of forgiveness embodied my thoughts on this matter. Jesus&#8217; desire, even on the torturous cross was &#8220;Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.&#8221; Yet actual forgiveness did not take place until the sinners repented and sought God&#8217;s forgiveness.</p>
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		<title>By: Pam Daly</title>
		<link>http://www.chrisbrauns.com/2008/02/18/others-on-conditional-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-774</link>
		<dc:creator>Pam Daly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gotpreaching.wordpress.com/?p=207#comment-774</guid>
		<description>Eph.4:32, the last part, just as in Christ God forgave you. If someone is not repentant, did not ask for forgiveness from God or the person offended, and continues to do evil, forgiveness would not come (just as God&#039;s forgiveness is not automatic).. I would, however pray for that person that they would allow God to come into their life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eph.4:32, the last part, just as in Christ God forgave you. If someone is not repentant, did not ask for forgiveness from God or the person offended, and continues to do evil, forgiveness would not come (just as God&#8217;s forgiveness is not automatic).. I would, however pray for that person that they would allow God to come into their life.</p>
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